Login/Sign up

World Association of International Studies

PAX, LUX ET VERITAS SINCE 1965
Post Mallorquí and Catalan
Created by John Eipper on 01/21/19 2:17 PM

Previous posts in this discussion:

Post

Mallorquí and Catalan (Jordi Molins, Spain, 01/21/19 2:17 pm)

Timothy Ashby asked: "Was a form of Vulgar Latin (Occitan?) spoken in what is now, France, Spain and Portugal before the Roman conquest?"

As John Eipper highlights, there was no Latin on the Peninsula before the Roman conquest, during the Second Punic War. The only relevant pre-Roman substrate that I know of is the Basque in some names of towns in the Catalan Pyrénées.

Maybe a bit decoupled from the specific question by Timothy: David Reich, a Stanford Professor, recently published in New Scientist a paper arguing that all males living in Iberia 4,500 years ago died without descendance, probably due to an invasion by Yamnaya (the tribe that introduced Indo-European languages in Europe, with an origin in the Ukrainian steppe).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180923-every-man-in-spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders/

The Catalan spoken in Mallorca is Eastern Catalan, while the Catalan spoken in Valencia is Western Catalan. I highly doubt the differences are due to some kind of ancient substrate: I do not recall any word in "Mallorquí" or "Valencià" that I cannot relate to old (or new) Catalan. The Occitan language is different, but even some linguists argue for the existence of a Catalan-Occitan unified language (analogous to, for example, the "reintegrationist" movement of the Corsican language into Italian).

The Catalan spoken in the Balearic Islands (not only in Mallorca) sounds to a "central Catalan" as an elegant version of traditional Catalan. For example, "Font de sa Cala" could also be a location name in the Catalan Costa Brava. However, in Catalonia the "salat" (use of "sa") has unfortunately been lost in daily usage, unlike in the Balearics. But some of the most famous beaches in the Costa Brava keep the "sa", such as "Cala sa Tuna," in Begur; there is a "Cala Bona" in Tossa de Mar, too.

The Catalan accent spoken in small villages of the interior of Mallorca may sound a bit hard to understand at first, but nothing compared to, for example, how difficult it is for a Madrileño to understand the Spanish accent spoken in some small village in Jaén. The Catalan accent spoken in Menorca is quite difficult to distinguish from the accent in Eastern Catalonia, at least without speaking continuously for a few minutes. For me, it is virtually impossible to distinguish the Valencian spoken in the north of Valencia, from the Catalan spoken in the South of Catalonia.

The usage of "mallorquí," "menorquí," "eivissenc" ... to denote the Catalan spoken in Mallorca / Menorca / Eivissa, is a trick by Spanish nationalism to put in doubt that the language is just a variety of Catalan. Nobody speaks about "Chilean" or "Asturian" as the Spanish language spoken in Chile or Asturias. The process of dehumanisation in Catalonia by Spanish nationalists, described in WAIS in recent years, is in fact a long-term process which has accelerated recently, but it has a multi-decade (even multi-century) substrate.

JE comments:  I learned a lot here.  Jordi Molins's final paragraph is a perfect illustration of Max Weinreich's classic distinction between language and dialect (the former is the same as the latter, but with an army and a navy).  To divide Catalan into fragmented dialects is a way of undermining Catalonian solidarity.  But this sword cuts both ways.  My Valencian friends get angry if you call their language "Catalan."  I presume it's a similar situation in the Balearics.


SHARE:
Rate this post
Informational value 
Insight 
Fairness 
Reader Ratings (0)
0%
Informational value0%
Insight0%
Fairness0%

Visits: 136

Comments/Replies

Please login/register to reply or comment: Login/Sign up

Trending Now



All Forums with Published Content (41758 posts)

- Unassigned

Culture & Language

American Indians Art Awards Bestiary of Insults Books Conspiracy Theories Culture Ethics Film Food Futurology Gender Issues Humor Intellectuals Jews Language Literature Media Coverage Movies Music Newspapers Numismatics Philosophy Plagiarism Prisons Racial Issues Sports Tattoos Western Civilization World Communications

Economics

Capitalism Economics International Finance World Bank World Economy

Education

Education Hoover Institution Journal Publications Libraries Universities World Bibliography Series

History

Biographies Conspiracies Crime Decline of West German Holocaust Historical Figures History Holocausts Individuals Japanese Holocaust Leaders Learning Biographies Learning History Russian Holocaust Turkish Holocaust

Nations

Afghanistan Africa Albania Algeria Argentina Asia Australia Austria Bangladesh Belgium Belize Bolivia Brazil Canada Central America Chechnya Chile China Colombia Costa Rica Croatia Cuba Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark East Europe East Timor Ecuador Egypt El Salvador England Estonia Ethiopia Europe European Union Finland France French Guiana Germany Greece Guatemala Haiti Hungary Iceland India Indonesia Iran (Persia) Iraq Ireland Israel/Palestine Italy Japan Jordan Kenya Korea Kosovo Kuwait Kyrgyzstan Latin America Liberia Libya Mali Mexico Middle East Mongolia Morocco Namibia Nations Compared Netherlands New Zealand Nicaragua Niger Nigeria North America Norway Pacific Islands Pakistan Palestine Paraguay Peru Philippines Poland Polombia Portugal Romania Saudi Arabia Scandinavia Scotland Serbia Singapore Slovakia South Africa South America Southeast Asia Spain Sudan Sweden Switzerland Syria Thailand The Pacific Tunisia Turkey Turkmenistan UK (United Kingdom) Ukraine USA (America) USSR/Russia Uzbekistan Venezuela Vietnam West Europe Yemen Yugoslavia Zaire

Politics

Balkanization Communism Constitutions Democracy Dictators Diplomacy Floism Global Issues Hegemony Homeland Security Human Rights Immigration International Events Law Nationalism NATO Organizations Peace Politics Terrorism United Nations US Elections 2008 US Elections 2012 US Elections 2016 Violence War War Crimes Within the US

Religion

Christianity Hinduism Islam Judaism Liberation Theology Religion

Science & Technology

Alcohol Anthropology Automotives Biological Weapons Design and Architecture Drugs Energy Environment Internet Landmines Mathematics Medicine Natural Disasters Psychology Recycling Research Science and Humanities Sexuality Space Technology World Wide Web (Internet)

Travel

Geography Maps Tourism Transportation

WAIS

1-TRIBUTES TO PROFESSOR HILTON 2001 Conference on Globalizations Academic WAR Forums Ask WAIS Experts Benefactors Chairman General News Member Information Member Nomination PAIS Research News Ronald Hilton Quotes Seasonal Messages Tributes to Prof. Hilton Varia Various Topics WAIS WAIS 2006 Conference WAIS Board Members WAIS History WAIS Interviews WAIS NEWS waisworld.org launch WAR Forums on Media & Research Who's Who